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Peter Jones
active 15 minutes agoPeter, what happened with Bébé Vundermann? I just learned that something went awry in "The Ecology of Systems Thinking" whereupon she abruptly left FB altogether. Is there something we can learn here (or even fix)?
Dec 6
I was actually talking to her about it, and to the group Admins.
Apparently she couldn't wait for the answer.
I can help with things if people are patient, if they don't jump to unsubstantiated conclusions, or indeed if they listen to what people are trying to tell them.
As with rather too many people, if folk are fixated on their own view of things, this will distort reality beyond helpful bounds, and indeed put them beyond the help of those who would or could help them ...
Apparently she couldn't wait for the answer.
I can help with things if people are patient, if they don't jump to unsubstantiated
As with rather too many people, if folk are fixated on their own view of things, this will distort reality beyond helpful bounds, and indeed put them beyond the help of those who would or could help them ...
Dec 7Sent from Messenger
Peter, I have an obligation to help put things right. It was my articles on systems thinking that woke up and inspired Bébé in the first place. I understand her enthusiasm, because I've been there before in my own formative years on the journey into systems thinking and systems science. Bébé is feeling betrayed, just as I once felt betrayed some 35 years ago at Bell Labs when I got too far ahead of the peloton.
I need to re-establish a connection to Bébé, but I only had her now-severed FB connection and the URL to her blog. I now have no way to communicate with her to help set things right. I need your help to do that Peter.
Here is the message Bébé left for me at noon yesterday, just before she severed her connection to FB. Please work with me to fix it as best we can. At your discretion, you may share these messages with your team.
I need to re-establish a connection to Bébé, but I only had her now-severed FB connection and the URL to her blog. I now have no way to communicate with her to help set things right. I need your help to do that Peter.
Here is the message Bébé left for me at noon yesterday, just before she severed her connection to FB. Please work with me to fix it as best we can. At your discretion, you may share these messages with your team.
Dec 7
Dec 7
Thanks for that.
It was genuinely a mistake, from an Admin worried about fake FB IDs and deleting bad profiles a bit too zealously, and not checking zealously enough ...
I have no way of getting in touch with Bebe, I'm afraid. But you could try asking in the Global Collaborative group, since she was a member there too, and may have given her email out there ...
It was genuinely a mistake, from an Admin worried about fake FB IDs and deleting bad profiles a bit too zealously, and not checking zealously enough ...
I have no way of getting in touch with Bebe, I'm afraid. But you could try asking in the Global Collaborative group, since she was a member there too, and may have given her email out there ...
Dec 7Sent from Messenger
So far, this is what I've done:
I reported it to Sam Hahn, Doug Breitbart, and Kayla.
I went to Bébé's web site ("Sapience") and left a message on her "Contact Me" page.
I'll relay your message above also to the same channels.
I presume there is no way to recover what was deleted.
I reported it to Sam Hahn, Doug Breitbart, and Kayla.
I went to Bébé's web site ("Sapience") and left a message on her "Contact Me" page.
I'll relay your message above also to the same channels.
I presume there is no way to recover what was deleted.
Dec 7
I appreciate your graciousness in sorting this out, Peter.
Dec 7
Regarding recovery, I think nothing from EoST will survive, this was deleted by said zealous Admin, but I don't know about her general FB material.
Disappointingly, no Admin has expressed regret over this, although I have asked them to consider this a sad event, and I certainly do.
FB might have kept an account that was deleted by them in case of error, but it might be less likely if a person deletes their own account.
You need to discuss with Bébé that she should not extrapolate all human kind from one person's stupid actions.
While too many of our Admins have professional reputations they are forced to hide behind, and live in a hard nosed world, the reality is most of them would not have taken this action. Only one of them actually did.
Disappointingly
FB might have kept an account that was deleted by them in case of error, but it might be less likely if a person deletes their own account.
You need to discuss with Bébé that she should not extrapolate all human kind from one person's stupid actions.
While too many of our Admins have professional reputations they are forced to hide behind, and live in a hard nosed world, the reality is most of them would not have taken this action. Only one of them actually did.
Dec 7Sent from Messenger
She has said for some years that she is writing a book and should concentrate on that.
I hope perhaps now she will.
I hope perhaps now she will.
Dec 7Sent from Messenger
Bébé has a blog, "Sapience2112," in which she is assembling and sifting through a lot of raw material for her book. If you've ever wondered how someone writes a book, Bébé's blog provides a window on how one person does the underlying work of crafting the contents of a book. Recently, she has been sifting through quite a bit of material that she gleaned from me.
https://www.sapience2112.com/blog/
https://
Dec 8
That is an important point to mention, if you get the chance.
FB gave her the opportunity to meet some good people, as well as those run of the mill types who actually don't think quite enough about what they are doing.
She needs to value the people she met, and not attach unrelated human actions and mistakes to a detached and inert platform ...
FB gave her the opportunity to meet some good people, as well as those run of the mill types who actually don't think quite enough about what they are doing.
She needs to value the people she met, and not attach unrelated human actions and mistakes to a detached and inert platform ...
Dec 8Sent from Messenger
Bébé's experience is one that I'm quite familiar with. Over some 25 years on the social networks, I've been kicked out of a dozen communities, including several that expressly were devoted to systems thinking. Nor am I alone in that regard. Doug Breitbart has long been hosting a weekly discussion forum about being randomly blocked by over-eager gatekeepers. It's actually a fairly widespread and perplexing phenomenon.
Dec 8
How does one value erratic gatekeepers who kick out leading-edge participants? Even at Stanford, I encountered professors who shut down students who were way ahead of the professor.
Recall how, in Harry Potter, Professor Snape routinely shut down Hermione Granger, who was the only student who had done her homework and knew the subject.
Dec 8
Yes. We can call it the Snape Grainger suffering m syndrome ...
Sorry fat fingers, no suffering involved ...
Dec 8Sent from Messenger
For obvious reasons, the participant who is getting too far ahead of the peloton is the one most likely to be unceremoniously ejected by the gatekeeper who is looking after the well-being of the median participants.
Dec 8
In theory the education system tells people to aim for that, but the issue is that the language then used at "the top" starts to become a foreign language to those behind the peloton leader.
The issue still is that most activities need to be collaborations, but the geek /swot issue remains, and school is generally not great at fixing the problem.
The issue still is that most activities need to be collaborations,
Dec 8Sent from Messenger
And online forums and FB groups are often managed much like a classroom, where the teacher wants the class to be a cohort who are learning a common frontier. The student who is racing too far ahead or falling too far behind is likely to be escorted out of the milieu.
Dec 8
Very much like school, as you say.
Folk do want to be in an echo chamber, hearing things well within their comfort zones.
I think this is an intractable problem, very tribal, education should take us beyond that, but seems to be much more adding to the problem.
Maybe it's even more causal than that?
Folk do want to be in an echo chamber, hearing things well within their comfort zones.
I think this is an intractable problem, very tribal, education should take us beyond that, but seems to be much more adding to the problem.
Maybe it's even more causal than that?
Dec 9Sent from Messenger
I can understand how a student who is utterly failing needs to be removed from an otherwise functioning classroom, so as not to divert the teacher from attending to the balance of the class. This problem was brilliantly revealed in Tracy Kidder's book, "Among Schoolchildren." What's less clear is how to ensure that the super-achiever A+ student is not abused or totally abandoned to his or her own autodidactic devices (lest he or she become a "freak" or social outcast). At my high school back in Omaha, Saul Kripke was treated with great deference and respect, even though he was functioning at the level of a college graduate even as a teenager. Then again, Saul Kripke's father, the Rabbi Myer S. Kripke, was a brilliant teacher in his own right.
Dec 9
Most teachers have to take on the unenviable task of teaching at three speeds:
Struggler, Mainstream, High Flyer.
Most fail! And Education itself is only really geared for Mainstream learners, although it has tried mightily to support those struggling.
In the process, the resulting body of knowledge on learning and teaching is now so huge most folk can't access it.
It's likely only AI powered bots will be fully able to access everything needed for every type of learner.
I truly think it's now a super human task, and people like Anne Marie are super rare for very good reasons ...
Struggler, Mainstream, High Flyer.
Most fail! And Education itself is only really geared for Mainstream learners, although it has tried mightily to support those struggling.
In the process, the resulting body of knowledge on learning and teaching is now so huge most folk can't access it.
It's likely only AI powered bots will be fully able to access everything needed for every type of learner.
I truly think it's now a super human task, and people like Anne Marie are super rare for very good reasons ...
Dec 9Sent from Messenger
In Grammar School, I had already learned most of the material a year ahead of my classmates, because I was tutoring my older brother who was one grade ahead of me. He would bring his textbooks home and I would read them and then explain the material to him. So a year later, I would sit through a class where I had already learned most of the material on my own and explained it to my older brother.
The high-flyer has to be autodidactic and also able to fit in with the rest of his class. In Grammar School, when my classmates had trouble grasping the day's material, they would come to me after class so that I could explain it to them in a way they could more easily understand. Somehow I managed to make the best of Public School without the whole experience going off the rails. But we are talking about the 1950s, when everything was much simpler. No drugs, no violence, no bullying back in those halcyon days in the middle class suburbs of Omaha.
The high-flyer has to be autodidactic and also able to fit in with the rest of his class. In Grammar School, when my classmates had trouble grasping the day's material, they would come to me after class so that I could explain it to them in a way they could more easily understand. Somehow I managed to make the best of Public School without the whole experience going off the rails. But we are talking about the 1950s, when everything was much simpler. No drugs, no violence, no bullying back in those halcyon days in the middle class suburbs of Omaha.
Dec 9
You did extremely well! And rather amazing you were helping your brother!
Good practice for helping other folk in your own class.
My school was not so well behaved, but I grew up in the seventies in a middling London suburbs ...
Good practice for helping other folk in your own class.
My school was not so well behaved, but I grew up in the seventies in a middling London suburbs ...
Dec 9 at 2:42 PMSent from Messenger
Education worked for me as well, in a middling, mainstream way, but didn't work for my eldest daughter, who struggled with anxiety relating to exams ...
Dec 9 at 2:44 PMSent from Messenger
In the 1990s, when I was pioneering online learning communities, the teenagers said they loved to learn but they hated school. On MicroMuse they could learn at their current frontiers without regard to where the schools were in terms of teaching content to their same-age cohorts. Of course, mostly they were learning computer technology and the art of online community building — content missing from the 1990s high school curriculum.
Dec 9 at 2:54 PM
Bébé, who surely had no education in system thinking, was beginning to learn it autodidactically, by consuming content from sources like the materials she found on my blogs. So you can see why it pained me to learn that her newfound enthusiasm for that kind of material backfired on her in EoST.
Dec 9 at 3:01 PM
I just hope we can find a way to win her back to the fold.
Dec 9 at 3:02 PM
The art of inline community building is still missing in the curriculum, and indeed online where it is needed.
What will you do with the course content?
As a co founder on a cloud based learning platform, we could make sure that content gets used and makes both more viable ...
What will you do with the course content?
As a co founder on a cloud based learning platform, we could make sure that content gets used and makes both more viable ...
Dec 10 at 1:33 AMSent from Messenger
I doubt anyone much has an education in ST, must be a tiny percentage. So the programme needed is always going to be more Further Education than Higher Education ...
That whole piece about how folk change their behaviour online - and why that is, and proper ground rules about behaviour - is missing, and I suspect down to human laziness in the most part, in many online forums. Many FB groups do now have a decent set of behavioural rules, but there is huge variation.
I tried to put a set in place for EoST, wanting to make them less Draconian and more supportive than some of the other Admins.
I'll maybe have another discussion with someone with deep ST knowledge and a very human application about them ...
That whole piece about how folk change their behaviour online - and why that is, and proper ground rules about behaviour - is missing, and I suspect down to human laziness in the most part, in many online forums. Many FB groups do now have a decent set of behavioural rules, but there is huge variation.
I tried to put a set in place for EoST, wanting to make them less Draconian and more supportive than some of the other Admins.
I'll maybe have another discussion with someone with deep ST knowledge and a very human application about them ...
Dec 10 at 1:46 AMSent from Messenger
I'm also pained, it seems like collateral damage for actions that an Admin hasn't thought about and can't accept responsibility for.
I'll try again, see if I can't make some improvements.
I'll try again, see if I can't make some improvements.
Dec 10 at 1:48 AMSent from Messenger
«What will you do with the course content?»
MicroMuse didn't actually have any courses in the ordinary sense of the word. Participants learned by doing — building content in the virtual world and learning from each other through conversation and collaboration.
I wrote up memoirs of some of the best passages, and those informal articles remain published on the MuseNet web site. It still runs on an antique machine, but FB does not take kindly to web sites running obsolescent versions of Apache, so I have to go to extremes to post links to it here. Even though it's not spam, that's how the FB 'bots classify links to my old servers. They don't have a classification for archive servers like mine.
I mostly learned Systems Thinking in grad school at Stanford. It's an extremely rarified form of thinking.
Back in the early 90's we pioneered all the basics for Communities of Interest, Communities of Practice, Communities of Commitment, Social Contract Governance Models, and Centers of Excellence. Alas, entrepreneurs like Zuckerberg blew all that pioneering work away with his ill-conceived model, which is more of an Anti-Social Network than a sociable one.
Have I ever shared with you the pioneering Charter, Mission Statement, Vision Statement, and Social Contract models from our work back in the 1990s?
MicroMuse didn't actually have any courses in the ordinary sense of the word. Participants learned by doing — building content in the virtual world and learning from each other through conversation and collaboration.
I wrote up memoirs of some of the best passages, and those informal articles remain published on the MuseNet web site. It still runs on an antique machine, but FB does not take kindly to web sites running obsolescent versions of Apache, so I have to go to extremes to post links to it here. Even though it's not spam, that's how the FB 'bots classify links to my old servers. They don't have a classification for archive servers like mine.
I mostly learned Systems Thinking in grad school at Stanford. It's an extremely rarified form of thinking.
Back in the early 90's we pioneered all the basics for Communities of Interest, Communities of Practice, Communities of Commitment, Social Contract Governance Models, and Centers of Excellence. Alas, entrepreneurs like Zuckerberg blew all that pioneering work away with his ill-conceived model, which is more of an Anti-Social Network than a sociable one.
Have I ever shared with you the pioneering Charter, Mission Statement, Vision Statement, and Social Contract models from our work back in the 1990s?
Dec 10 at 3:21 AM
No, and I know someone who I think would be really interested ...
Of course, so often learning is actually a very individual process, and one of the issues with the current education system is the one size fits all preference and tendency, although I think they are unable to see where the soubriquet applies ...
Dec 10 at 7:08 AMSent from Messenger
We start with the Orenda Project, from the 1990s, the umbrella for it all.
Dec 10 at 9:50 AM
Dec 10 at 9:50 AM
Dec 10 at 9:51 AM
OK. FB is blocking the link to my archive web server. So I have to do it the hard way. Put real dot characters in for each <dot> to get a working URL.
http://lotus <dot> musenet <dot> info/motet/contract.html
http://lotus <dot> musenet <dot> info/motet/
Dec 10 at 10:25 AM
Dec 10 at 10:27 AM
Dec 10 at 10:30 AM
FB is wonky and fickle. It blacklists some of my hostnames but not all of them. And they all resolve to the same two servers here. They're just "Virtual Hostnames" that go do different root directories for different projects, on four different host/port numbers on my LAN.
Dec 10 at 10:51 AM
I can see this ...
Dec 10 at 1:05 PMSent from Messenger
I can see this ...
Interesting. I'm not allowed to send that link, but I have seen it ...
Yeah, that works ...
Dec 10 at 1:07 PMSent from Messenger
Also works ...
Code cannot be wonky and fickle, it just picks up different things from different routing channels, and behaves accordingly.
We all always need to update, you should be using Wakelet, or Medium ...
Code cannot be wonky and fickle, it just picks up different things from different routing channels, and behaves accordingly.
We all always need to update, you should be using Wakelet, or Medium ...
Dec 10 at 1:09 PMSent from Messenger
And in doing so you would reach much larger audiences, especially Medium ...
You might also have a look at Wakelet, very easy to organise content their and adapt and integrate existing content into a course like structure, if you wanted to ...
Dec 10 at 1:16 PMSent from Messenger
*content there
One other thing, did you ever have any students from this? And over what period of time?
Dec 10 at 1:26 PMSent from Messenger
I think FB relies on some Blacklist, perhaps one provided by a third party (like MalwareBytes) that simply flags web sites based on undisclosed criteria (like obsolescent versions of Apache).
I've tried to find some such third party that has flagged any of the hosts in my MuseNet domain, but all the ones I've looked say my servers are clean.
I may have to set aside some time to find the specific hostnames that don't get flagged by FB.
Dec 10 at 2:36 PM
Old versions of software can allow holes and virus software, that's probably why.
You should move everything to the cloud, there's plenty of free storage ...
You can store and organise plenty on Wakelet, no limits that I can tell ...
You should move everything to the cloud, there's plenty of free storage ...
You can store and organise plenty on Wakelet, no limits that I can tell ...
Dec 10 at 5:17 PMSent from Messenger
Seriously, why hang on to something that's causing such difficulties when there are much easier options ...?
Dec 10 at 5:18 PMSent from Messenger
I could move it all to the web server at the MIT Media Lab, where they provide a machine for alumni. The problem is that I would have to search every HTML page for hard-coded URLs and sort them all out by hand. So far, it's only FB that seems to be relying on some roboticized source of blacklisting web sites and web servers. If I use the hostname 'hnc' (and provide direct port numbers in the URLs) rather than any of the virtual host alias names, FB doesn't seem to mind.
Dec 10 at 7:43 PM
The problem is complicated by the fact that that my servers which operate on alternate port numbers works on my own LAN at home, but in the cloud, I don't think that technique is possible. Everything would have to be disassembled and reassembled to operate without virtual host names being directed to separate web servers running on different port numbers so as to have different server root directories.
Dec 10 at 7:48 PM
There are Hacker communities all over the world, I just found the web page that proves it. I find it hard to believe that someone hasn't thought of this already ...
You don't have to do everything yourself, getting help, finding collaborators, is a key way forward in the 21st century, and again something the education system has entirely missed.
You don't have to do everything yourself, getting help, finding collaborators, is a key way forward in the 21st century, and again something the education system has entirely missed.
Dec 11 at 1:26 AMSent from Messenger
That's a feature, if I'm not mistaken, of crime syndicates trying to avoid being found ... If others don't follow FB in cutting out such behaviours I'll be very surprised ...
You need to find ways to simplify all this, most folk cannot hope to recreate the complexity you have built in ...
A more pertinent question would be how many pages of content are there?
Dec 11 at 1:29 AMSent from Messenger
We're talking about content dating back to the 1990s. It can't be too much because the whole machine only has abut 8 GB in the non-system directories. There's two Apache servers on the Sun Ultra machine running Solaris 5.8 and one Apache server on the Macintosh G5 machine running OS X Leopard 10.5.8. I also have a more recently acquired Synology NAS that I could use to build a consolidated web site. The Synology NAS has two 500 GB SATA drives in a RAID pair and it has a modern Web Server.
This infrastructure dates back to the DSL days when I only had 3 Mbps service over copper telephone lines. Almost all the content was text with a few items of multimedia (e.g. photos).
This infrastructure dates back to the DSL days when I only had 3 Mbps service over copper telephone lines. Almost all the content was text with a few items of multimedia (e.g. photos).
Dec 11 at 8:39 AM
One problem I'd like to avoid is having tons of links out there on my blogs and elsewhere suddenly going stale if I relocate all that content to different servers with different URL paths. I might be able to fix it with carefully engineered HTML Redirects, but that's not an easy thing to do w/o screwing it up.
Dec 11 at 8:45 AM
Links going stale may already have happened if the links are being rejected for whatever reason.
Isn't this more that you are rescuing content, and can you redirect pages without raising any flags?
I think a problem here is that you had all that technical knowledge back in the day, but that has now become dated, and you don't have the resources to fix this.
I know some technical guys now, as a result of some local charity tendering discussions.
Do you want to ask them? It would likely be much quicker than dragging me along these technical corridors ...
Isn't this more that you are rescuing content, and can you redirect pages without raising any flags?
I think a problem here is that you had all that technical knowledge back in the day, but that has now become dated, and you don't have the resources to fix this.
I know some technical guys now, as a result of some local charity tendering discussions.
Do you want to ask them? It would likely be much quicker than dragging me along these technical corridors ...
Dec 11 at 1:13 PMSent from Messenger
I dunno. It would probably cost more than it's worth if they wanted to be paid for their time and labor.
Dec 11 at 6:39 PM
Like I said, there are a good many hacker spaces, and folk there could have easy solutions, that might make costs considerably lower. Hard to say without a fairly simple enquiry.
It's about what your time is worth, versus whether you want to harness the content you spent years offering together.
I'd think your local hacker spaces would have views on that too ...
https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/List_of_Hacker_Spaces
It's about what your time is worth, versus whether you want to harness the content you spent years offering together.
I'd think your local hacker spaces would have views on that too ...
https://
Dec 11 at 10:48 PMSent from Messenger
*years putting
Dec 11 at 10:49 PMSent from Messenger
Please don't take about subordinates, Barry, this isn't corporate culture ...
Dec 12 at 12:55 AMSent from Messenger
You don't consider the admins you appointed to be subordinates under your supervision?
Dec 12 at 1:09 AM
Absolutely not!!!
Please change that post wording, it's quite upsetting you have written that ...
Dec 12 at 1:10 AMSent from Messenger
So "rogue admin" is an OK term of art, but not "subordinate admin"?
Dec 12 at 1:10 AM
It's not even a case of first among equals, we just see things differently ... If I had control then I would be able to get actions changed, but I need to argue the case as an equal ...
Dec 12 at 1:12 AMSent from Messenger
And what I say privately to you is not the same as saying something publicly, although the term rogue does have implications ... But rogue can simply mean divergent, I don't think it has hierarchial implications, that's your assumption ... Think rogue elephant, do we assume hierarchy among elephants? And even if we do, is rogue anything to do with elephant hierarchy? More of a breakaway implication, surely?
Dec 12 at 1:15 AMSent from Messenger
Rogue typically means "out of control" or "out of norms."
Dec 12 at 1:24 AM
Yeah, well sadly my personal view is that's true, but that it can usually be retrieved through education. With some folk not, though ...
Dec 12 at 1:25 AMSent from Messenger
And no correlation to hierarchy!
Dec 12 at 1:26 AMSent from Messenger
What it means is that you have lost (or ceded supervisory control) to the rogue admin, whose idiosyncratic judgments and erratic practices are now de facto ensconced as the new prevailing authority over whose content shall be deemed acceptable for presentation to the remaining members of the group.
So Bébé was evidently justified in her decision to depart and sever connections with those in charge of EoST.
So Bébé was evidently justified in her decision to depart and sever connections with those in charge of EoST.
Dec 12 at 1:32 AM
I think you are conflating a few things.
One Admin does not speak for the whole a Admin team, or even the whole group.
Human beings also make mistakes.
This is the beginning of conspiracy theory, surely?
One Admin does not speak for the whole a Admin team, or even the whole group.
Human beings also make mistakes.
This is the beginning of conspiracy theory, surely?
Dec 12 at 1:35 AMSent from Messenger
He didn't just speak. He acted.
Nor, as I understand it, did he have any remorse for his action.
Dec 12 at 1:37 AM
Winning sometimes damaged or limited people over can take time, results aren't instant.
You're a systems thinking guy, you must surely realise this?
You're a systems thinking guy, you must surely realise this?
Dec 12 at 1:37 AMSent from Messenger
I consider it a major unsolved problem in human culture and civilization.
Dec 12 at 1:38 AM
Exactly
Why expect something different in one small community?
Dec 12 at 1:38 AMSent from Messenger
And it's problem that has plagued humankind for some 5000 years, with no solution in sight.
Dec 12 at 1:39 AM
We all get along with compromise in one form or another, and it's about understanding there's still a baby in the dirty bath water ...
Dec 12 at 1:39 AMSent from Messenger
Between you and me, the compromise was to replace 'subordinate' with 'rogue'.
Here's a question for you. Do you know if the so-called rogue admin took notice of my post, in which I characterized him as "insubordinate"?
Dec 12 at 1:41 AM
If folk can't understand the damage they do through their perfectionism, and that includes Bébé here, then folk will suffer ... Here there's fault in the Admin team and self harm on the part of Bébé ...
And, by the way, this is a private discussion, so please keep this to yourself ...
And, by the way, this is a private discussion, so please keep this to yourself ...
Dec 12 at 1:41 AMSent from Messenger
Thank you, I can live with that ...
Dec 12 at 1:42 AMSent from Messenger
The instance may be private, but the pattern is ubiquitous in these so-called social networks, constituting a recurring problem — a vexing and perplexing problem.
Dec 12 at 1:42 AM
Not entirely sure which one it was, but I'm guessing it's one of two ...
And I don't think I'm going any further than that, it's a private discussion that needs to stay that way, else relations between Admins will get worse not better, and that works be worrying with a rogue Admin ...
I don't think it's that bad, by the way, I'd say misguided is a far better term.
You are familiar with the work of the Dalai Lama?
He says suffering has three causes: Craving, Hated and Ignorance. And that ignorance is by far the most common.
And I think that's the case here, a strong case if the unknown unknowns ...
And I don't think I'm going any further than that, it's a private discussion that needs to stay that way, else relations between Admins will get worse not better, and that works be worrying with a rogue Admin ...
I don't think it's that bad, by the way, I'd say misguided is a far better term.
You are familiar with the work of the Dalai Lama?
He says suffering has three causes: Craving, Hated and Ignorance. And that ignorance is by far the most common.
And I think that's the case here, a strong case if the unknown unknowns ...
Dec 12 at 1:46 AMSent from Messenger
'Misguided' suggests that absence of a guiding party (or the absence of a party bearing a functional "guiding light.").
Are you familiar with Doug Breitbart's weekly Zoom sessions called "Sunday Unblocking"? It's about this very pattern. The pattern is so ubiquitous that Doug convened an ongoing 2-hr weekly Zoom meeting (in GCC) to address it. And his Zoom sessions are public and posted on YouTube.
Are you familiar with Doug Breitbart's weekly Zoom sessions called "Sunday Unblocking"? It's about this very pattern. The pattern is so ubiquitous that Doug convened an ongoing 2-hr weekly Zoom meeting (in GCC) to address it. And his Zoom sessions are public and posted on YouTube.
Dec 12 at 1:50 AM
He and I have both been unceremoniously booted out of sizable groups, under much the same circumstances.
In yet another 2-hr Zoom session on Friday, we spent an hour on this very issue.
Dec 12 at 1:53 AM
Well now you are connecting the insoluble problem you identify with the ubiquitous underlying cause, and rightly so, I agree fully with the Dalai Lama, who has immense wisdom to offer on many subjects ...
To revisit the Dalai Lama immediately, he talks of the first step in problem solving is Understanding, which is fully in line with his view that Ignorance causes most problems ...
FYI, steps two and three and determination, then action.
The Dalai Lama counsels that even faulty / incomplete action with good intent is better than no action or a pursuit of perfection, which often means very slow action or none at all ...
To revisit the Dalai Lama immediately, he talks of the first step in problem solving is Understanding, which is fully in line with his view that Ignorance causes most problems ...
FYI, steps two and three and determination, then action.
The Dalai Lama counsels that even faulty / incomplete action with good intent is better than no action or a pursuit of perfection, which often means very slow action or none at all ...
Dec 12 at 1:58 AMSent from Messenger
Regarding a guiding light, I refer you to our conversation on the importance of story telling ...
*two and three are
Dec 12 at 1:59 AMSent from Messenger
Indeed, when we talked about it today, I mentioned that my idiosyncratic response to these episodes is to write a story about. At first I wrote scholarly or academic essays, but then I turned to allegories, parables, song parodies, comic operas, and comedic send-ups of these recurring experiences.
Dec 12 at 2:01 AM
"Today" meaning Friday in the US.
Dec 12 at 2:02 AM
Been a long day, for me I'm just starting Saturday!
Dec 12 at 2:02 AMSent from Messenger
Actually, it's now two hours past midnight on the US East Coast.
Dec 12 at 2:03 AM
This is about platforms. You wouldn't try to speak to a Ted X audience from a soap box in you own front room!
Building your own platform is fine if you know how to promote it. But I see no evidence of that, and that's the kind of story telling I'm talking about ...
Building your own platform is fine if you know how to promote it. But I see no evidence of that, and that's the kind of story telling I'm talking about ...
Dec 12 at 2:05 AMSent from Messenger
Yep. GMT-5.
Dec 12 at 2:05 AMSent from Messenger
I find writing song parodies personally therapeutic, although I have no evidence they have any effect on reducing the occurrence of these episodes.
Dec 12 at 2:05 AM
The question to ask is: how many people, over how many years, have read your blog articles?
When there are platforms like Blogger, WordPress, Twitter with huge global audiences ...
When there are platforms like Blogger, WordPress, Twitter with huge global audiences ...
Dec 12 at 2:07 AMSent from Messenger
I frankly suck at the art of storycraft. Like the Dalai Lama, I prefer to boil it down to a one-sentence summary. (And then let another participant read it aloud from the Chat.)
Dec 12 at 2:09 AM
This is all part of the overriding problem, folk can't see all of the skills they need to make any kind of difference, and frankly are pretty poor at listening carefully enough to others seeking to give them advice ...
I think your intent is great, but your execution needs a lot of work ...
Dec 12 at 2:10 AMSent from Messenger
Doug pointed out an observation he gleaned some years ago. If you ask for money, you'll receive advice instead. But if you ask for advice, you'll sometimes receive money instead.
Dec 12 at 2:11 AM
That doesn't work for me, but I have my own issues to work with.
Dec 12 at 2:11 AMSent from Messenger
Bébé told me the the one thing she gleaned from me that had the most impact on her was the guidance to Bear Accurate Witness. Sometimes bearing accurate witness is brutal. Tact and diplomacy are not my strong suits. Bearing accurate witness will sometimes ruffle someone's feathers. And so the best writers turn to fictive versions, the form of elliptical story telling.
Dec 12 at 2:15 AM
Still, we do have an unalienable right to tell the true story of our own lives.
Dec 12 at 2:16 AM
Would it have been inaccurate to say the rogue admin was "insubordinate"?
Not that he willfully disobeyed his superior, but that he simply didn't have one supervising him.
Not that he willfully disobeyed his superior, but that he simply didn't have one supervising him.
Dec 12 at 2:20 AM
Anyway, It's late, so I'm off to bed now.
Dec 12 at 2:23 AM
No
As I've said misguided is better, we are also not in the command and control model any more ...
Dec 12 at 2:48 AMSent from Messenger
Night night!
Dec 12 at 2:48 AMSent from Messenger
When I worked at Mitre, back in the 1980s, the division that hired me was called C³I (C-Cubed I) which stood for Communication, Command, Control and Intelligence. I proposed revising C³I to stand for Comprehension, Cognition, Consciousness, and Insight.
If I were to write a Shakespearean Soliloquy about our conversation here, I would dub it, "Taboo or Not Taboo? That Is the Question."
Dec 12 at 6:46 AM
I would go beyond that in some factors as well ...
Connection, Cohesion, Collaboration, Insight ...
Connection, Cohesion, Collaboration, Insight ...
Dec 13 at 12:25 AMSent from Messenger
As long as you know you are writing it for yourself, given you have no focus on promoting what you are doing.
For example, you seem uninterested in the idea of connecting with local hacker spaces, and have no Twitter account to promote articles ...
For example, you seem uninterested in the idea of connecting with local hacker spaces, and have no Twitter account to promote articles ...
Dec 13 at 12:27 AMSent from Messenger
I do have a Twitter account, but I rarely use it. I'm @Moulton45 on Twitter.
Occasionally I promote articles there, but mostly I find my peer group on LinkedIn or on FB. There just aren't very many people on this planet who are interested in what I do.
I spent the last week hacking Ultrix on some old VAXstations and DECstations. For that, I just use Google to find very old articles on how to do arcane things in Ultrix on 30 year old machines.
Occasionally I promote articles there, but mostly I find my peer group on LinkedIn or on FB. There just aren't very many people on this planet who are interested in what I do.
I spent the last week hacking Ultrix on some old VAXstations and DECstations. For that, I just use Google to find very old articles on how to do arcane things in Ultrix on 30 year old machines.
Sunday at 7:00 AM
Am I right you prefer to be doing than talking?
Monday at 8:26 AMSent from Messenger
Even when I was at Bell Labs, working with the IBM 360, whenever I ran into an issue that was beyond my ken to solve, the in-house expert also found that he could not solve it either. It was very rare that I ran into an insoluble issue that I someone out there had the magic bullet of arcane knowledge to fix it. And now, when I'm tinkering on 30-year antiques, there is hardly anyone left alive who even recalls the basics, let alone how to diagnose an arcane glitch.
Monday at 11:57 AM
On the other hand, I've been on the opposite end where I was the only person who knew how to fix an oddball glitch where someone else in the hacking community got stuck.
But that was back in the days of UseNet NetNews, when there still existed specialized NewsGroups for old DEC iron.
Monday at 12:00 PM
So from a point of view of passing the knowledge on, it's unlikely you'll find someone interested.
Sounds to me mostly like a hobby, something you enjoy to keep you occupied ...
Sounds to me mostly like a hobby, something you enjoy to keep you occupied ...
Monday at 3:32 PMSent from Messenger
Exactly. These are antique/obsolescent machines that have no value, other than as something to tinker on. It's like Frankenstein — bringing the dead back to life. It's just for the thrill of resurrecting a long dead system.
Monday at 10:28 PM
Monday at 10:28 PMSent from Messenger
In view of Bébé's anger at you and EoST, I told her this true story from the 1990s ...
There was a conference that I attended at the Sloan School at MIT which included a lot of content on Systems Thinking. There was one panel discussion that was also open to the public, moderated by Christopher Lyon who hosted a regular talk radio show on NPR. Among the panelists was Steve Wozniak, the hardware engineer who developed the Macintosh along with Steve Jobs.
After the panel discussion ended, I went up to chat with Wozniak. I said to him, "The smartest thing you did in the design of the Macintosh was leaving out the Amygdala."
Woz gave me a quizzical look.
I continued, "By leaving out the Fear Processor, the Macintosh never gets angry. As a result, the Macintosh has a Buddha Nature. Giving the Macintosh a Buddha Nature was the smartest thing you ever did."
Wozniak's eyes brightened. He smiled knowingly. He understood exactly what I meant.
There was a conference that I attended at the Sloan School at MIT which included a lot of content on Systems Thinking. There was one panel discussion that was also open to the public, moderated by Christopher Lyon who hosted a regular talk radio show on NPR. Among the panelists was Steve Wozniak, the hardware engineer who developed the Macintosh along with Steve Jobs.
After the panel discussion ended, I went up to chat with Wozniak. I said to him, "The smartest thing you did in the design of the Macintosh was leaving out the Amygdala."
Woz gave me a quizzical look.
I continued, "By leaving out the Fear Processor, the Macintosh never gets angry. As a result, the Macintosh has a Buddha Nature. Giving the Macintosh a Buddha Nature was the smartest thing you ever did."
Wozniak's eyes brightened. He smiled knowingly. He understood exactly what I meant.
Yesterday at 5:07 PM
Bébé did not say she was angry with me, and she has no reason to be.
You have a tendency to extrapolate that you need to curb, because you end up with completely wrong assessments of any situation.
If she has said that to you, again, she has no reason to be angry.
I was in fact unable to do anything, not unwilling. I tried and failed, like many another human being.
I'm not able to control everything, and nor is anyone else.
To expect anyone to be a superhero / superman is highly unreasonable, I'm afraid.
You have a tendency to extrapolate that you need to curb, because you end up with completely wrong assessments of any situation.
If she has said that to you, again, she has no reason to be angry.
I was in fact unable to do anything, not unwilling. I tried and failed, like many another human being.
I'm not able to control everything, and nor is anyone else.
To expect anyone to be a superhero / superman is highly unreasonable, I'm afraid.
7 hours agoSent from Messenger
Would you like to see the E-Mail she sent me today? There is at least one sentence in it suggesting she expects me to share it with you. It would be an understatement to say that her tone was livid.
7 hours ago
I already get a lot of email I would rather not have.
Her anger, then, is pointless and achieves nothing, in terms of anything I can do, it's too late for that. Rather it's a phase she needs to go through personally to get to a period of acceptance.
However ...
Over many years, I have suggested to her, indirectly, that writing her book was not in the end going to be the catharsis she seeks for the death of at least one parent.
I suggested she was better engaged in writing for other people, but she did not want to pursue that.
She has chosen her own path, in terms of adjusting to loss, especially ignoring counsel from others, and there are consequences for that in terms of teaching m recovery rates. Feeling sad about loss is one thing, taking out anger on others is actually counter productive.
Namely, I feel she has not properly got over the death of her parent, and also seems to blame others without reason for their ignorance - stupidity even - when she thinks they should know better. But I'm afraid we are all human beings. We all make mistakes. There's nothing personal involved. No one knows everything, as pointed out at considerable cost by Socrates, a deep Systems Thinker himself.
I have deliberately not sought to take control of EOST, although I could have done so, BECAUSE I'm a systems thinking guy, who sees those control patterns repeated again and again over history, with largely unsuccessful results, and much pain along the way. I will cite Hitler and the Jews here.
I have tried to work collaboratively with other Admins because I believe 💯% in working that way, and I'm unwilling to change that, underpinned by ST reasons.
Bébé can return, but chooses not to. Again, it's not my choice, but a self inflicted wound on her part.
If she wants to return I will 💯% support that, because I know that it was a mistake on the part of Admins that we have discussed and can rectify.
That's the real point that she and you should be focusing on.
For Bébé to blame humanity for being human and making mistakes is to expect folk to be superman. I'm sorry but that's not a reasonable or Systems Thinking approach to take.
Consider her anger shared, BTW!
But please note, again from a Systems Thinking perspective, I think anger that blames others is a pointless and net negative activity, a view clearly endorsed by the Dalai Lama, another Systems Thinker, and this anger is currently a self inflicted and perpetuating wound.
If you choose to share this with her, please give her the whole context, not a juicy extract of your choosing, where I think sometimes your own past suggests that you miss some of the fine points involved.
Her anger, then, is pointless and achieves nothing, in terms of anything I can do, it's too late for that. Rather it's a phase she needs to go through personally to get to a period of acceptance.
However ...
Over many years, I have suggested to her, indirectly, that writing her book was not in the end going to be the catharsis she seeks for the death of at least one parent.
I suggested she was better engaged in writing for other people, but she did not want to pursue that.
She has chosen her own path, in terms of adjusting to loss, especially ignoring counsel from others, and there are consequences for that in terms of teaching m recovery rates. Feeling sad about loss is one thing, taking out anger on others is actually counter productive.
Namely, I feel she has not properly got over the death of her parent, and also seems to blame others without reason for their ignorance - stupidity even - when she thinks they should know better. But I'm afraid we are all human beings. We all make mistakes. There's nothing personal involved. No one knows everything, as pointed out at considerable cost by Socrates, a deep Systems Thinker himself.
I have deliberately not sought to take control of EOST, although I could have done so, BECAUSE I'm a systems thinking guy, who sees those control patterns repeated again and again over history, with largely unsuccessful results, and much pain along the way. I will cite Hitler and the Jews here.
I have tried to work collaboratively
Bébé can return, but chooses not to. Again, it's not my choice, but a self inflicted wound on her part.
If she wants to return I will 💯% support that, because I know that it was a mistake on the part of Admins that we have discussed and can rectify.
That's the real point that she and you should be focusing on.
For Bébé to blame humanity for being human and making mistakes is to expect folk to be superman. I'm sorry but that's not a reasonable or Systems Thinking approach to take.
Consider her anger shared, BTW!
But please note, again from a Systems Thinking perspective, I think anger that blames others is a pointless and net negative activity, a view clearly endorsed by the Dalai Lama, another Systems Thinker, and this anger is currently a self inflicted and perpetuating wound.
If you choose to share this with her, please give her the whole context, not a juicy extract of your choosing, where I think sometimes your own past suggests that you miss some of the fine points involved.
7 hours agoSent from Messenger
*slower recovery rates
True there, of course, some people never recover ...
7 hours agoSent from Messenger
It could very well be a case of displaced anger. I've seen it before. I for one would not take it personally, but rather as a mystery to be solved.
I'm not sure how it can be that Deborah (her other name) can have such vehemently expressed vituperation toward systems thinking and yet find my writing so meaningful. Surely she must know that I spent my professional career engaged in systems thinking. At some point, that dichotomy must emerge, and when it does, it wouldn't surprise me she redirects her anger at me. And then, if I remain true to form, I'd translate and transform the resulting misadventure into yet another comic opera, that has been my modus operandi for more than two decades. I reckon you could have a front row seat, if you care to be in attendance.
I'm not sure how it can be that Deborah (her other name) can have such vehemently expressed vituperation toward systems thinking and yet find my writing so meaningful. Surely she must know that I spent my professional career engaged in systems thinking. At some point, that dichotomy must emerge, and when it does, it wouldn't surprise me she redirects her anger at me. And then, if I remain true to form, I'd translate and transform the resulting misadventure into yet another comic opera, that has been my modus operandi for more than two decades. I reckon you could have a front row seat, if you care to be in attendance.
7 hours ago
If you were to take me up on my offer to forward the entire set of emails, you will discover I quoted verbatim the entirety of your remarks. That's how I ensure I am bearing accurate witness.
7 hours ago
Okay, that explains why she's angry with me.
You can't see why doing that stokes the fire and pours petrol on it?
You don't realise that folk say things in unguarded ways to third parties?
I find your "Systems Thinking" here is part of the problem, since you are acting without permission, or indeed asking for it, and acting very simplistically, without regard to human nuance. Your Systems Thinking does not include human frailty and error, or indeed social systems humans have constructed to deal with those frailties and errors.
Things shared 121 are not expected to be shared verbatim with third parties.
Did you do that at work as well? And also without asking permission? In which case no wonder you struggled.
And actually no, you aren't bearing accurate witness, because you haven't taken the whole situation and former dialogue into context, therefore you are quoting things accurately, yes, but totally missing the context of what has been said.
The "worst type of journalism", quoting text out of context.
You can't see why doing that stokes the fire and pours petrol on it?
You don't realise that folk say things in unguarded ways to third parties?
I find your "Systems Thinking" here is part of the problem, since you are acting without permission, or indeed asking for it, and acting very simplistically,
Things shared 121 are not expected to be shared verbatim with third parties.
Did you do that at work as well? And also without asking permission? In which case no wonder you struggled.
And actually no, you aren't bearing accurate witness, because you haven't taken the whole situation and former dialogue into context, therefore you are quoting things accurately, yes, but totally missing the context of what has been said.
The "worst type of journalism", quoting text out of context.
6 hours agoSent from Messenger
My ethic is to bear accurate witness. If that's a capital offense, then so be it.
As far as I know, you don't have the context of what went down in EoST. Deborah thinks she knows which admin it was (she thinks it was a female admin), but you had said you didn't know which admin it was.
There is only one reliable way to get to the ground truth, and that is to get all the evidence out on the table and study it like any objective detective would.
6 hours ago
I think this digging is entirely counter productive. You want to prove people are human and make mistakes? Force them to "repent"? Forcing is never correct, why I'm sad this situation happened, and sad about the consequences. But I can't and won't force other people to change, they have to reach that position for themselves.
If Debbie wants back in, that's fine by me and I'll support it.
If you want to call the Admins out, tag me, and I'll support you tacitly as far as I see you adhering to facts, and not indulging in a blame game and supposition and assumption.
If you want to discuss this under a Do No Harm label, then you may have a chance, but I doubt this seriously given the people involved.
Let me point out that a social media group is more like a house party, and I'm more like a host.
The fact that some a Admins treat it more like a jury house is not my approach but theirs.
The real issue is people typically misbehaving in a larger community, at which point some rules have to be brought in.
Some Admins were keener than others for this, it's not something I want to get involved in to this extent, not what I signed up for.
I'm literally a victim of my own success, the house party has got so large we now attract uninvited and unwelcome guests, and we have to start behaving like police.
Really not what I signed up for ...
Perhaps I should resign, and leave you members to the mercies of the other Admins ...?
If Debbie wants back in, that's fine by me and I'll support it.
If you want to call the Admins out, tag me, and I'll support you tacitly as far as I see you adhering to facts, and not indulging in a blame game and supposition and assumption.
If you want to discuss this under a Do No Harm label, then you may have a chance, but I doubt this seriously given the people involved.
Let me point out that a social media group is more like a house party, and I'm more like a host.
The fact that some a Admins treat it more like a jury house is not my approach but theirs.
The real issue is people typically misbehaving in a larger community, at which point some rules have to be brought in.
Some Admins were keener than others for this, it's not something I want to get involved in to this extent, not what I signed up for.
I'm literally a victim of my own success, the house party has got so large we now attract uninvited and unwelcome guests, and we have to start behaving like police.
Really not what I signed up for ...
Perhaps I should resign, and leave you members to the mercies of the other Admins ...?
6 hours agoSent from Messenger
You know about the law of unintended consequences, right?
6 hours agoSent from Messenger
I've written about it.
6 hours ago
Have you understood it?
6 hours agoSent from Messenger
«If Debbie wants back in, that's fine by me and I'll support it.»
She expresses her preference on that in yesterday's E-Mail.
I simply want to understand what happened and why it happened.
I'm not looking to call anyone out or fix blame. I just want to have in my own mind an accurate mental model of what transpired, so that I can actually understand what happened. Perhaps somewhere in that "Warm Data" there's an insightful model to be extrancted.
She expresses her preference on that in yesterday's E-Mail.
I simply want to understand what happened and why it happened.
I'm not looking to call anyone out or fix blame. I just want to have in my own mind an accurate mental model of what transpired, so that I can actually understand what happened. Perhaps somewhere in that "Warm Data" there's an insightful model to be extrancted.
6 hours ago
I don't believe in the Police Culture. But I'm in the minority on that perspective.
6 hours ago
There is something that happens in large FB groups that tends to undermine them. I've seen it time again over the past quarter century. But it's hard to get an accurate picture of what goes awry. My suspicion is that it has something to do with the Police Culture, which some admins and gatekeepers adopt.
6 hours ago
It's hard to believe that 12,000 people in EoST are all systems thinkers. There just aren't that many of us. We are a tiny demographic — perhaps less than 1% of the population of educated professionals.
6 hours ago
Oh, now this is odd. Debbie's G-Mail account has inexplicably vanished.
1 hour ago
That's the thread in which we were corresponding yesterday. The last thing I sent was that story about Wozniak. The above non-delivery message came back just two hours ago.
1 hour ago
You want to model human vagaries across a group of roughly eleven Admins?
That seems a project which could take you for ever.
What kind of more achievable goal could you set that might meet my very limiting resource constraints?
I will happily explain what happens in FB groups, because I've observed it happening.
And it's not the police culture, although that doesn't help, it's the fact that people are drawn to large groups of other people with less than bona fide intentions.
Which then suggests or in fact necessitates a need for a police type role.
It's a small scale model of community at large, with folk who haven't had the kind of education we are privileged to have had, and therefore don't conform to the kind of aspirational norms we hope for ...
We have people joining for the express purpose of spamming and scamming, and testing bots, and we do need to make sure such folk are not having a harmful impact on members.
That seems a project which could take you for ever.
What kind of more achievable goal could you set that might meet my very limiting resource constraints?
I will happily explain what happens in FB groups, because I've observed it happening.
And it's not the police culture, although that doesn't help, it's the fact that people are drawn to large groups of other people with less than bona fide intentions.
Which then suggests or in fact necessitates a need for a police type role.
It's a small scale model of community at large, with folk who haven't had the kind of education we are privileged to have had, and therefore don't conform to the kind of aspirational norms we hope for ...
We have people joining for the express purpose of spamming and scamming, and testing bots, and we do need to make sure such folk are not having a harmful impact on members.
56 minutes agoSent from Messenger
If you want to understand the warm data component, maybe try talking to Nora, who is in fact one of our Admins.
54 minutes agoSent from Messenger
One of my alter egos is Barsoom Tork, Anthropologist from Mars. Barsoom has been at that project for over two decades.
https://encyc.org/wiki/User:Moulton/Barsoom_Tork
https://
53 minutes ago
When you set up EoST, did you consider defining it as an Intentional Community — either a Community of Interest, a Community of Practice, or a Community of Commitment? An Intentional Community (as opposed to an Accidental Community) typically has a Charter, a Vision Statement, a Mission Statement, and a Social Contract. It's the Social Contract that functions as the Community Self-Governance Model.
I was thinking of opening a Group Messenger Discussion with all the EoST Admins to see if we can put our heads together to better understand what is going awry.
Meanwhile, back at the branch, I just received this non-delivery error message on the last round of E-Mail with Debbie ...
I was thinking of opening a Group Messenger Discussion with all the EoST Admins to see if we can put our heads together to better understand what is going awry.
Meanwhile, back at the branch, I just received this non-delivery error message on the last round of E-Mail with Debbie ...
45 minutes ago
Yeah, I don't have two decades, I have projects I'm working on where I'm looking for tangible impact on the not too distant future ...
These are all hobby projects of yours, and the problem there is other folk are unlikely to share your passion, and certainly not in the same format.
These are all hobby projects of yours, and the problem there is other folk are unlikely to share your passion, and certainly not in the same format.
38 minutes agoSent from Messenger
When you set up EoST, did you consider defining it as an Intentional Community — either a Community of Interest, a Community of Practice, or a Community of Commitment? An Intentional Community (as opposed to an Accidental Community) typically has a Charter, a Vision Statement, a Mission Statement, and a Social Contract. It's the Social Contract that functions as the Community Self-Governance Model.
I was thinking of opening a Group Messenger Discussion with all the EoST Admins to see if we can put our heads together to better understand what is going awry.
Meanwhile, back at the branch, I just received this non-delivery error message on the last round of E-Mail with Debbie ...
I was thinking of opening a Group Messenger Discussion with all the EoST Admins to see if we can put our heads together to better understand what is going awry.
Meanwhile, back at the branch, I just received this non-delivery error message on the last round of E-Mail with Debbie ...
37 minutes ago
And will you ask their permission?
This seems to be a continual blind spot for you, asking folk to engage on your terms without asking what their circumstances are ...
This seems to be a continual blind spot for you, asking folk to engage on your terms without asking what their circumstances are ...
36 minutes agoSent from Messenger
How is it possible to ask someone's permission to converse with them without first communicating that proposal without their permission?
Anyone who is an Admin has a tacit expectation of being queried regarding the execution of their role.
35 minutes ago
None of those, much simpler.
I saw Systems Sciences as a very focused community, but took the alleged goal of spreading the ST message to a wider community, and implemented that in EoST.
So yes, not just Systems Thinkers, but space for an audience to understand and dive in to ST, if they see an interest and want to learn more.
I saw Systems Sciences as a very focused community, but took the alleged goal of spreading the ST message to a wider community, and implemented that in EoST.
So yes, not just Systems Thinkers, but space for an audience to understand and dive in to ST, if they see an interest and want to learn more.
34 minutes agoSent from Messenger
How can any self-respecting admin not automatically accept responsibility for being accountable for their role in exercising power over others? The exercise of power without accountability is a working definition of evil. Every child who has read fairy tales knows that.
32 minutes ago
Well I'm afraid that's your perception, the situation is actually way more complex.
If you want to explore this by all means do so, but as I've mentioned I don't have the capacity to have this discussion.
Are you listening?
If you want to explore this by all means do so, but as I've mentioned I don't have the capacity to have this discussion.
Are you listening?
32 minutes agoSent from Messenger
Do you recall those closing remarks from Gregory Bateson in the video Nora put together a few years ago? GB expressed the fervent wish that others understood what he perceived and understood. It was a goal that has taken Nora a lifetime to fulfill.
30 minutes ago
And perhaps if you found a way of engaging without the level of complexity you bring, you would get more answers.
You've talked about my being gracious in answering questions, perhaps you could be equally gracious in respecting my time constraints?
You've talked about my being gracious in answering questions, perhaps you could be equally gracious in respecting my time constraints?
30 minutes agoSent from Messenger
<Are you listening?>
No. I am reading. And I am responding item by item as I scroll through them. This thread is not synchronous audio.
No. I am reading. And I am responding item by item as I scroll through them. This thread is not synchronous audio.
29 minutes ago
I believe some of our Admins are on the autistic spectrum, and I'm guessing you might be.
That's usually a recipe for substantial misunderstanding ...
That's usually a recipe for substantial misunderstandin
29 minutes agoSent from Messenger
You want be to dedicate a lifetime to answering your questions?
And when I talk about my time constraints what do you understand by that?
27 minutes agoSent from Messenger
«This seems to be a continual blind spot for you, asking folk to engage on your terms without asking what their circumstances are ...»
Why do those in power demand that I engage them on their terms without first negotiating mutually agreeable terms of engagement? Those in power do not have the right to exercise power over me without my prior consent. And if they seek to exercise such power, then they are functioning in a capacity that, in children's fairy tales is associated with evil and villainy.
Why do those in power demand that I engage them on their terms without first negotiating mutually agreeable terms of engagement? Those in power do not have the right to exercise power over me without my prior consent. And if they seek to exercise such power, then they are functioning in a capacity that, in children's fairy tales is associated with evil and villainy.
26 minutes ago
«And when I talk about my time constraints what do you understand by that?»
Give me and actual number of hours per day or in total. Without numbers, it has no functional meaning to say one's time is limited. Everyone's time is limited.
Give me and actual number of hours per day or in total. Without numbers, it has no functional meaning to say one's time is limited. Everyone's time is limited.
25 minutes ago
We are all spending a lifetime seeking answers to fundamental questions.
24 minutes ago
Why am I here? What am I doing with my life? Is any of it working? If not, why not?
Where are things going awry? How can we diagnose and correct them? That's precisely what a Systems Scientist does.
If you don't have time to fulfill the function of being a systems scientist, then what are you doing instead?
21 minutes ago
I'm not in power, that's laughable, I'm a human being, and looking for some respect in that fact. Being forced into a discussion I don't have time for because you think I should be accountable for other people's actions in an entirely non hierarchical setting suggests this conversation is going nowhere, because the starting premise is 💯% misguided.
I'm going back to some tangible work now, and suggest you go back and read the contents of this discussion. I think your thinking is one sided and frankly rather disrespectful of my circumstances, and as such I can't engage on those terms.
Bye for now.
I'm going back to some tangible work now, and suggest you go back and read the contents of this discussion. I think your thinking is one sided and frankly rather disrespectful of my circumstances, and as such I can't engage on those terms.
Bye for now.
21 minutes agoSent from Messenger
Did you not read what I wrote: "I was thinking of opening a Group Messenger Discussion with all the EoST Admins to see if we can put our heads together to better understand what is going awry."
Now you propose that I must first seek their permission to engage in the primary function of regulating an otherwise dysfunctional community model?
I propose to publish this discussion for review by others. If you have no objection, signify by remaining silent.
18 minutes ago